Interview with Richard Lui
Richard Lui is an award-winning journalist and news anchor for MSNBC and NBC. He’s also a columnist contributing to publications including USA TODAY, Politico, Seattle Times, Detroit Free Press, and the San Francisco Chronicle, and he’s the author of a terrifically insightful new book Enough About Me. When Richard’s father, Stephen, was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s disease, Richard decided to set aside his growing career to care for his family. Selflessness, however, did not come easy. So Richard set out to explore why he struggled. In every decision big and small, Richard discovered hidden opportunities to put others ahead of himself.
Gary Barg: Actually to start, I love the title of the book, Enough About Me: The Unexpected Power of Selflessness.
We always say that caregiving is the most selfless kind of love. What I find interesting in the book is that you take that selflessness of caregiving and expand it out—teach us to expand it out into other aspects of our life which I found just mesmerizing. Can you talk about the book and why you decided to write it?
Richard Lui: Gary, it’s good to see you. It’s good to see an old friend’s face. I don’t know how long we haven’t seen each other, is it three years? But this is such an important topic, so thank you. You know what brings us together, and that is caregiving, being family caregivers, and knowing that that’s such an important human expression. So that’s what started it all. It was caring for my father, identifying how best to help my family. What is almost eight years ago now. And I often say I didn’t set out seven or eight years ago when I asked my boss to work three days a week so I could fly from New York to California, which I still plan on doing when things get better to help with my father and my mother.
But along the way is all these reidentifications. All these re-IDs, all these questions like what am I? what’s my goal? what do I care about? who is Richard? And that led to of all things a book about selflessness, and by golly, you never know what things are going to happen once you hit the family caregiving road. I mean, all sorts of things just pop open. It’s almost like I grew two more eyes and I could see more. So one of those things I can see is this idea that we can be selfless in everyday ways.
Gary Barg: You were ready to walk away from a dream job to care for your dad with Alzheimer’s and you found that your boss, Yvette Miley, is a family caregiver, which happens all the time, caregiver to caregiver. And actually helped you develop a plan to keep your career and create your new life as a family caregiver. What was in that plan and how did that work?
Richard Lui: You’re right. I thought she was going to say, “Richard, we like you, you’re a nice guy, but square peg, round hole, right? This is an eight-day-a-week job.” And I knew that because she would send me all over the place to do things. She has always been there for me and helping me to develop my journalistic point of view and skill. Instead she said, “Yeah, let’s come up with four ideas. Let’s see how we can make this work. And let’s meet again in a week.” We met in a week, and said, “Okay, when we’re ready, now we have it down. You let me know when you’re ready, Richard."
A year later, I said, “Okay. We have to pull the lever,” and I began the in effect part-time work, these would be the number of days a week, but still working more hours on those three days. And that’s how it happened. I was just like I can’t believe this. I was shocked.
Gary Barg: I think the lesson there is self-identity. You knew what you needed to do. And fearlessness. You knew you needed to step in, and no matter what happened, talk to people. And I know so many times we’re afraid to tell our loved ones, our fellow family members, our employers what kind of help we need because we don’t want them to suffer along with us. Or in case of our employers, we may be afraid of losing our job. And more times than not, I think it’s that people are ready, willing, and able to help.
Richard Lui: As soon as you bring it up. Especially now that we’re in a COVID period, it has opened up the selfless muscles of a lot of organizations and selfless muscles of a lot of individuals in organizations, and that we are now open to hearing about how you may need help. And we are open to hearing that we might be able to be creative as an organization.
Do you tell your organization because they might think you’re less capable? That they will not invest in you as much. They will discount your abilities. Similar to what women have had to face since the beginning of time, which is as soon as they would declare that they are expecting a baby they got put in a certain category. And that is a similar dynamic that you cover so well when it comes to work.
Richard Lui: When I was writing the book, I said, “Dear Yvette, how would have you know that you would have changed my life?” I’m now doing a movie. I’m taking care of my dad. I’ve done a book. And none of this was in the plan. None of it.
Gary Barg: And another movie coming up.
Richard Lui: And another one after that, involving the topic of caregiving.
Gary Barg: How has COVID affected your ability to be involved with caregiving for your dad?
Richard Lui: This last year, I have only flown back home twice. Both times I visited him through a window. Now that I am vaccinated, I am planning to go back next week for the first time without the concern, if you will, of seeing my mother physically. The last time I saw her through a four-inch opening. I was sitting outside her window in the street and I brought her the Chinese takeout she always like to eat. I would put it in the garage. She opened up the garage. I slipped it in. She closed the garage, went and got it, sat on the inside on a couch. I sat outside. People walking by because this was literally a San Francisco street, and I’m sitting there eating my Chinese takeout. So, this is a special little meal.
I know just a small example of what so many families across the world have had to deal with, but I think that is that element of what COVID has brought back to us is these simple things that are so special to all of us that we didn’t realize and we took for granted. I do believe that we’ll be a more caring world, I think, after this which is really heartening.
Gary Barg: I think so too. And along those lines, in your book you introduce us to regular folks who have done remarkably selfless things. Any one of them in particular stand out for you that you want to share with us?
Richard Lui: How can you make me pick one of my kids? I’m joking. I take a journalist approach to the book and try to bring some of the amazing people that I’ve met. I believe, as you know, that we’re living through a selfish pandemic. The hate and violence is very cheap right now. You only have to look at the mass killings we’ve seen recently. I’ve become unfortunately way too good at covering mass killings.
Every time I’m covering one of those events, that’s one person. There are often also 20 or 30 other people that are the selfless heroes of that moment. So we cannot let these ultimately super-selfish people take the day. The people that must take the day are those who represent the opposite of that. I write about them in the book because I don’t want us to forget that that is the real test of humanity; that is the real result.
One is Peter Wang who was at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School during the Parkland school shooting. He was in JROTC and wanted to go to West Point. He stood there when the gunman was there and instead of running away, because of his training and his love of what it meant to be in the military was to protect others, was that he held the gate open that had an auto-close to it so the others could run by faster and escape. One of the bullets found him and he was killed that day.
As a 15-year-old, what was he doing? Why would he even think of that? He knows what a gun can do. He’s in JROTC. And that is one of those, wow, what was it that formed who he was and who he is? And what’s great about the story is that he inspired so many people, including me, that at his funeral he was given an entry into West Point posthumously.
Gary Barg: Lovely.
Richard Lui: An amazing example of selflessness. The idea is this is accessible; you don’t have to be Mother Teresa or Desmond Tutu; there are things that we do every day that when the big thing happens, we’re ready to go.
Gary Barg: How did your parents model selflessness for you?
Richard Lui: We lived through a time when food was not easy, and thanks to the welfare system we had food stamps. They didn’t want to change their careers, my dad being a pastor, then become a social worker. My mother was a schoolteacher. She got asked, “Would you like to become vice-principal, Rose?” “Rose, would you like to move to this school? You get paid more. The students are easier to handle. They’re less troublesome.” And my mom every time, would say, “No.” In fact, for her last job she chose the school that had the worst scores and the most violence of any elementary school in the city.
They never came back to me and shook a finger at me and said, “Well, you know, you got to do what we’re doing. You see, you got to look at other people.”
Gary Barg: You took another path, but you took their heart and their voices in your head, and it’s obvious that you come from givers.
Richard Lui: They are givers, and I learned a lot passively from them I think. It’s possible to give too much. As soon as you said is what I was thinking, Gary, because you and I know each other through family caregiving, and that is we can give too much. In fact, in the book we have a scoring card to see if we do give too much. It’s very common as you know.
Gary Barg: Every caregiver needs that.
Richard Lui: Yes. Exactly. That’s why I brought it up because I know that you have covered the topic and you know it’s important for our family caregiving community. We kind of keep on giving, giving—like my mother, she went through that. I write about it in the book and call it the scream because we have the cloud cameras to help with the caregiving supervising, and I heard her scream once and I was like, oof, that is not a scream of anger; that’s a scream of help. This is a scream of sadness.
Gary Barg: Anguish.
Richard Lui: Anguish. You got it. Exactly.
Gary Barg: Hey, Richard, what’s the one most important piece of advice you’d like to share with family caregivers?
Richard Lui: It’s to share another story of somebody else doing something selfless. It’s very accessible. It’s very easy to do. You can either write it out in your social media or you can share it on Facebook. You saw a story, share that, put one sentence above it. It’s the beginning of the understanding of what it takes to be selfless and it inspires others.
My collaborator Nancy French shared a story the other day of somebody who—not somebody, but a laundromat that put a posting on their window. The posting said, “If you are having some economic trouble because of the time we’re living in and you need a clean set of clothes for an interview, we will clean it for you for free. We want to put you in your best place.” She shared that story. And that’s exactly what we need to do is share more stories like that.
Gary Barg: Anecdotes are everything when it comes to family caregiving, and I guess giving is getting. If you see yourselves as part of the continuum of everybody caring for everybody else. And maybe you talk silver linings in a tragic situation, maybe that’s something that we all slowed down a little through COVID, are all suffering in ways we hadn’t suffered before, that we can actually now feel and share each other’s pain to where selflessness becomes more organic.
Richard Lui: This time has certainly caused us to pause and see the gaps that were already there.
Gary Barg: Selflessness really is everything when it comes to caregiving. I love your idea of that muscle memory, how to manifest it as part of your being so you’re not being a martyr—you’re not being selfish. That there’s a great middle ground there.
Richard Lui: That’s right. Don’t put it in the corner. Don’t go visit it once a week, right? Make is part of the four walls in your house.